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Wednesday, May 4, 2016

North Putnam disputes report regarding 'closet'

Friday, June 3, 2011

The "time-out" room from Amber Russell's classroom, pictured above, may not be very large, but it does hold two student desks and a computer desk. There was a door with a large window on it at the time of the incident in August 2010, which has since been removed.
BAINBRIDGE -- Amber Russell's classroom is room 104. It's a short walk from the main office and doors of North Putnam Middle School. Entering the room, it looks no different from any other schoolroom. It has all the staples: desks, computers, books and more. But looking left there is a small, almost completely square room no more than 7 feet by 7 feet.

This was the room principal Terry Tippin said Russell used as a "time-out" room, and the same room in which Leigh Casto's son Nathan was placed in August 2010.

At the time, there were some boxes in there, as well as a desk and board. There was a door attached, which had a large window, but no lock on it, Tippin said. The room was meant to be used as a quiet study area. Now there are no boxes, only two student desks, a computer desk and chair, making the small area seem even smaller. There's also no door at all now.

"At no time did we lock a student in a closet," Tippin said, responding to claims parents made to the media. "I apologized that we had a parent that felt she was mistreated."

Indiana's Department of Education has guidelines regarding isolated time-outs, which cannot be used as a form of punishment. The school board could create guidelines that would require isolated time-outs to be used but they should be used only as a means of maintaining a safe and orderly environment, IDOE states.

As to why Russell placed the child in the room or whether she received any disciplinary action after the event, Tippin would not comment. However, he said the incident was fully investigated and the matter was handled appropriately.

Tippin showed the Banner Graphic the room as a result of the recent resurfacing of the August 2010 incident. Russell is currently being accused of improper conduct because of recent Facebook posts she made regarding her job. Some of the posts were "I love dumb people. I call it job security" and "5+1=Freedom from the Hell hole."

Casto clarified some of her remarks and experiences with the Banner Graphic in regard to the August incident. Casto said she had not seen the room herself, but Old National Trail representative Nancy Holsapple and disability advocate Jill Summerlot told her about what the room looked like after the incident occurred. Casto said Nathan's individualized education program, or IEP, did not give the school permission to use a time-out seclusion, and such seclusions should be recorded and supervised at all times according to IDOE guidelines.

Casto said Nathan was not a student in Russell's class at the time of the incident. Nathan's designated safe person, counselor Andy Cottingham, was watching Nathan at the time and had to leave. He asked Nathan if he wanted to go to the gym for physical education class or to Russell's classroom. The gym class was not adaptive for his needs, and Nathan chose to go to Russell's classroom.

Upon entering the classroom, Nathan had asked Russell if he could use the computer, which would follow his usual routine, Casto said. Russell denied his request, and when questioned, Russell did not give him a reason. Casto said Russell assumed her son was in her class for disciplinary reasons, and Russell claimed he was a disruption to the class. She said Russell took Nathan by the arm and placed him in the time-out room, which Casto said was not a designated time-out room at the time and was confirmed to be a supply closet by Holsapple and North Putnam superintendent Mary Lovejoy.

At one point in Nathan's time in the room, his mother claims Russell held the door shut, and he was left in the room unsupervised.

Casto said she had heard about the incident from another student and attempted to get an apology from Russell several times. Immediately after the incident, Nathan became distrustful to people at school and later made the suicidal remarks that prompted counseling.

"His personality had completely changed," Casto said. "She needs to be out of there."

North Putnam Superintendent Mary Lovejoy and Russell could not be reached for comment Friday.

The matter of the Facebook postings is still being investigated by the school corporation, and officials had no comment at this time.

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thats a handful to deal with

-- Posted by Sputty on Fri, Jun 3, 2011, at 6:32 PM

Wow as a parent he does not get this and he never will this must be where the attitude comes from at North Putnam of teachers first students last.

So why did Russell apologize if she did nothing wrong?

-- Posted by Parentof N:P on Fri, Jun 3, 2011, at 7:29 PM

Next time send the offender to the Principals Office, get paddeled and sent home.Inconvenience the parents a little bit and get some accountability.

-- Posted by Reader2 on Fri, Jun 3, 2011, at 9:28 PM

Doesn't look like a closet to me. There is probably more here than meets the eye....

-- Posted by localman on Fri, Jun 3, 2011, at 10:06 PM

the Banner is blowing this out of proportion without hearing the teacher's side. This an internal problem with the school and does not need to be aired in public. A special needs student gets more attention, teaching help and facilities than do other students. Mothersw tend to be over protective.

-- Posted by albert on Fri, Jun 3, 2011, at 11:06 PM
Response by Banner Graphic:
The Banner Graphic attempted to contact Amber Russell several times since this story broke, as well as contact Mary Lovejoy, in order to get their side of the story. The two have either not responded or said they had no comment on the situation.

Seems like training on disabilities is necessary for the people responding to this as well as the school staff. Giving the student more attention would have required her to not shut him in a room. Having heard Mr. Tippin apologize to a group (and the mother), he apologized for not handling the situation appropriately. Seems the truth is a bit fuzzy for him now if he is saying it was for the parent feeling mistreated. Seemed to me he apologized because he felt he did some of the mistreating.

-- Posted by NPNO on Fri, Jun 3, 2011, at 11:38 PM

What I'm wondering is...why did it take a week for them to let someone see the room?

Why is the door removed? How do we know there wasn't a lock if the door was gone? We are supposed to take Tippin's word for it because he is so honest? Why did the parent have to tell Lovejoy? Why did another student have to tell the parent? Why didn't Russell or Tippin?

Lots of questions that seem covered up here.

The bottom line is that Amber Russell broke the law regarding seclusion and restraint. The school knows it and so does she.

-- Posted by all4advocacy on Fri, Jun 3, 2011, at 11:46 PM

As early as 1988 there was a time out room of similar construction at Roachdale Elementary in the EH classroom in the basement. That one had a lock and the teacher at the time used it. All of the parents knew about it and it wasn't a cause for alarm to them or anyone else in the school system. Why is something that has been going on under the guise of 'helping the child help themselves' for at least 20 years suddenly an issue?

-- Posted by miraclemom3 on Fri, Jun 3, 2011, at 11:47 PM

somewhere close to 1986 mr. ross shut me in a closet, in his classroom with no lights and a chair. i think i was talking in class or being disruptive!! nothing was outta the norm then and i tell the story to this day!! i was wacked at elementary (tz) by mr. tz. junior high by mr. masten, mr. little, mrs jones and ms. huggard. high school by mr hesler, mr. j miller and i am sure i could be forgetting a couple. yes they whipped hard with monster size paddles. obviously i needed these punishments and they have hurt me in NO way to this day. they have made me a better person and i think back often how i acted as i grew up. i have no bad feelings towards any one of those teachers, only respect. they have been a part of who i am today!! teachers need control bc kids and parents are outta control

-- Posted by badboy46120 on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 12:55 AM

Did they teach you how to write in 1986? I'd get a refund on your diploma.

-- Posted by Keyboard_hero on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 3:58 AM

I assure you badboy is much more intelligent & successful than the mass majority of folks who post here.

I agree, paddling was no big deal in the 80's. Towards the end of the decade, detention & Saturday school began replacing corporal punishment...and thus, the problem began. Just about the same time we went from having "slow" kids to ones "diagnosed" with ADHD,Autism,Bipolar, IEPs, etc.

When did we as society turn into such pansies?

-- Posted by ProblemTransmission on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 5:47 AM

I also received 3 whacks from Mr.Steward in 1973 and I had it coming for acting up in Mr.Risk's class-bring back the paddle,it's not corporal punishment,it's called an "attitude adjustment" tool.........

-- Posted by kubotafan on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 6:47 AM

I agree that the world of punishments have changed in our schools today and parents have taken a back seat to their own childrens upbringing, but that is not the reason this story came out. Ms Russell has blantently broken school policy when dealing with a child that was under her care, this specific child has a routine or as they said earlier an IEP. The person at fault her is not the child nor the childs parent, but more directly Ms Russell and ultimately the Admin staff of our school corp. Personally I do not care if they made that room look like a class room because if I was reading this correctly the child was looked in a room period. Which does not follow this childs IEP. It would not matter if the room was as small as a closet or as big as a gym. Next up to the day the face book scandle broke the same person was locking other kids in places that she should not be doing it. Maybe their behavioral plan allowed that but i doubt it. Then comes the facebook thing, how can anyone say she has freedom of speech or that what she says is private because they cant see it but the parents, teachers and students can see it obviously. All the teachers involved in that should be dealt with properly, the media has focused on the closet when the original story was the things she said about the kids and the school corp. The only teacher in that ordeal that supported the kids was Mr Tom Roach. Other teachers not just Ms Russell said things that were not proper, Such as the comment about the dumb ones were the ones that were breading "and it is a vicious cycle". I think the school corp is playing games by holding this out for us to see while holding the other stuff behind their back until it all blows over. Lastly if this is what she/they got caught for what have the not gotten caught for.

-- Posted by Oh My Goodness on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 8:03 AM

How long does it take to investigate this, I can send them the pictures and it would be an open and closed investigation.

-- Posted by Oh My Goodness on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 8:06 AM

Of course, this thread is not a courtroom and the story is hardly telling the facts that will be considered when it gets there. I can only speak of my own experiences with the school system, the end product, young people that I've hired and trained as employees.

Very few know how to function as human beings, let alone perform simple math in their heads or write anything legible. It's no mystery that other countries are outproducing us without the dumbed down, politically correct education system that we have.

The kids that don't learn basic respect for authority and the skills needed to participate in a self disciplined society quickly learn from teachers with badges, guns and tasers. Time outs last for months, sometimes years, and are performed in concrete rooms with steel furniture and bars.

-- Posted by westforty on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 12:50 PM

Good Luck witht his one Ms. Lovejoy and Mr. Tippin!!! Another example of misinformation/lack of information being exploded in public.

Be prepared NP School Board members, this one will end up in your lap for something to be done. Just do not let it be the end to an educator's career, make sure you have all the information. Do the right thing!!!

This is tough on everyone.

PS - This is why you get paid the big bucks. LOL

-- Posted by cvilleguy on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 12:56 PM


In regards to your comment about North Putnam graduates--"Very few know how to function as human beings, let alone perform simple math in their heads or write anything legible--," I must say, you are very wrong. I can tell you that there are many doctors, lawyers, teachers, and other successful professionals that all received a wonderful education, thanks to the caring faculty at NP. Perhaps it isn't the school district that continuously 'drops the ball' when it comes to these people you speak of...after all, learning begins at home.

Please note, this comment has nothing to do with the above story. I was simply responding to westforty's gross misstatement.

-- Posted by NP Grad on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 1:37 PM

For the one's that are not understanding what is going on. Your Government and Politians are the one's that have made these changes since the 70's & 80's. I was in school my self at those times , and had my punishments also. These days everything has changed a great deal. Yes we had children that had IEP's, Autism, ADHD, Bipolar and Etc, but was not made publicized as it is today. If there is a parent out there that has a disabled/special needs child then u would be understanding and also know the truth of the whole stories , inside and out. These children and parents have been let down by our school Staff, Administration, and Teachers. I for one am one of those parents. I am not a pansie as one called us, but I am a parent that has great concerns for my children that I Love and Protect everyday of my life. These people, Mr. Tippin, Mrs.Lovejoy, Mrs.Russell, and many more that will be mentioned at a later time are the ones that have cozed allof this to begin with. That room has changed completly from the way it was in August. Where is the door? Why was it taken off before the media could go in and inspect it, so they could save them selves. There is alot here that not all of you know about. And before you can speak about it you have to know about .

-- Posted by Roachdale Resident on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 2:21 PM

Roachdale Resident- I have 2 children on the spectrum. I never said I approved of the way things were done in my day or what happened in this case. My only question is why is it an issue now? Several of the students who were placed in the 'dungeon room' at Roachdale had very specific IEPs that stated they were not to be left alone or isolated for any reason. Those IEPs were not enforced because the families involved lacked the funding as well as the 'name' required to get anything done in this county. It was just done, and often multiple times a day.

Oh and westforty, for the record at least 3 of those students are currently frequent fliers at the DoC and local probation offices. One is an employee of a facility much like PCCS in another county, and another is a successful local business person. So I have to question if corporal punishment in the schools is really an answer to preventing adult criminal activity.

-- Posted by miraclemom3 on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 2:37 PM

Miraclemom3, I did not mean that things in the 70's & 80's were right, I am just saying I been there and done that to, but in today's society it is all different. I am very sorry for what has happened to any child or parent in the past. And there is absolutely no funding and for sure We do not have a name around here. It is parents that got together and we are starting to fight what is right for our children and parents as a community. That is what it is going to take is parents getting together and staying together on this. You are more than welcome to join in with the rest of us if you would like.

-- Posted by Roachdale Resident on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 3:58 PM

When you send your child to school, you and your child have a reasonable expectation that child be kept safe. It is one thing to be bullied by other students, and quite another to be bullied by the adults that are supposed to be keeping the children safe. I was a student in the 70's and 80's when paddleing was widely accepted as a form of punishment. That doesn't mean that it was right! And, many times it was abused. Things change. Laws change--many times to correct flaws in the system or to prevent tragic things from reoccurring. Some of what happened at NP is a matter of law, and some is just a matter of common sense. This teacher did not follow this student's IEP, and it is common sense to know that locking a child in a supply closet is inappropriate and will not have a calming effect on a child (and YES this WAS a supply closet when this incident happened). The comments this teacher made on Facebook are just a sympton of and ongoing problem at NP. Students are expected to be disciplined when the do something wrong, but what about the adults? By doing nothing, the administration will only foster a mistrust of adults and authority within all of the children, and a feeling of a lack of fairness within society. There needs to be serious disciplinary action taken. I believe that Russell and Tippen need to be dismissed. What more has to happen?

Are they going to wait until something really tragic happens? Maybe your child is not directly affected by this, but someday it may be your child or grandchild. Are you going to wait for something terrible to happen to one of yours before you are willing to stand up for what is right? Right is right, and wrong is wrong. What has happened here is just plain wrong.

-- Posted by Seashell2464 on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 4:11 PM

Wow it is truly amazing what some parents are doing to the school system these days. I am disgusted by what a couple of parents can do to a teacher. My child had Mrs. Russell in class and I personally have nothing but good things to say about her.It would be real shame if the school was to loose her. I personally think what she said on Facebook was wrong but I am guilty of venting about my job on Facebook as well. Does that mean I should loose my job at Sams club I don't think so.Also shame on the parents for exposing their childen to this. They would have never know anything if it wasn't for their parents exposing them to it. What kind of parent does this to their child? The same parent that would sue the teach or school for monitary compensation and I bet that's what we aren't hearing. I usually don't rant like this but its time someone stood up for the teacher involved.


-- Posted by Ori--n on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 7:04 PM

Ori--n, Maybe , just Maybe you was one of the lucky ones that was not affected or harmed,by this so called teacher of concern... I can say there are many High school students that have access to the internet and facebook.It wasnt the parents that exposed them to any of this, it all began at the school. And for your info, there is no money involved in this matter what so ever. I usually dont rant like this either but let me tell ya , when it comes to a child you better believe I am going to put my opinion in.

-- Posted by Roachdale Resident on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 7:52 PM

This is being completely blown out of proportion! There are lies being told here. People don't have the whole story! One of the parents causing a stink has successfully sued another school system. They came here this year and it looks like she would like to do the same to NP! Sounds like pattern to me...Mrs. Russell was DIRECTED by Administration to write that apology. Mrs. Russell is a great teacher. All of my children have worked with her. She is kind and understanding to their disabilities. This feels like a witch hunt. It has to stop! Mrs. Russell vented about her job. She was being harrassed by some of the parents and was ready for the school year to be over!!

-- Posted by Adirondacks on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 7:53 PM

Adirondacks- The sad thing here is that "only venting" would have been forgiven by the public. The lack of instruction, lack of positive attitude about her job (year round), and lack of positive attitude about her students (year round) has gotten her here.

I hope the parent that is causing the stink left the last school system in tip top shape. I also hope they can do the same here. Their work is cut out for them... It is not just taking on a teacher at NP. If admin at the middle school took care of bad teachers when issues happened it would be easy. Unfortunately, they ignore until a parent points it out and says they wont back down, then the parent has to work twice as hard because admin is then trying to save their own neck for ignoring it in the first place. I would like to see people just do their jobs right the first time. Wouldn't that be much easier?

School Board, if you are listening,I vote oust the teacher for not doing her job, oust the principal for not doing his job (on Russell and pencil thrower), oust the pencil throwing teacher (who is still out of control) and let the parents and students move on and hope things can actually be better there.

-- Posted by NPNO on Sat, Jun 4, 2011, at 11:18 PM

I really don't understand how anyone can think what this teacher did is okay. Ms. Russell created this problem herself with her attitude and actions. If she doesn't like being a teacher, then find another occupation. Don't take it out on the students. For those of you out there who are such Amber Russell fans-maybe you could hire her as a private tutor. It sounds like she may be in the market for a new job soon!

-- Posted by Seashell2464 on Sun, Jun 5, 2011, at 12:17 AM

I had the chance to read her wall when this first blew up. Its funny there was nothing said about the positive remarks she had said. I remember something about being proud of her students do to their higher test scores and another post about a field day and how she was looking forward to.havin fun with her students. I think witch hunt was a verry good description of what is going on here. I was also told by another parent that the student described as a teachers pet was anything but. He had been suspended multiple times prior to being in Mrs. Russell's class. If this is true shame on the parent for bold face lying to the media like that. This is truly tragic, and for the comment that I was a parent not affected by her actions I was affected but in a positive way and I know of other parent that were as well. I think this is a case of parents trying to put the blame of their own poor parenting on the school system to be honest. Truly a shame!

-- Posted by Ori--n on Sun, Jun 5, 2011, at 8:47 AM

I've been thinking. What would have been the correct action for her to take. Put the child in the room to cool off for a bit by himself. If that's not the answer what is? Should the child be taken out of school for not being able to function ? I don't think this us right either. On the otherhand if my child was in that class I wouldn't want all this time being spent on one child it takes away from all the other kids needing help. I personally think she did the right thing. If anyone is to blame let's blame Mitch. He is the one taking the help out of clasrooms. If we aren't blaming him let's blame Lovejoy. She is the person who has every teacher in the school system stressed. I have two friends teaching at north puttnam and both say the samething about this situation they hate working under her. How can we expect out teachers to function at their best under this situation. All this whole thing is going to do is make it harder for teachers to do their jobs. When my youngest child gets into school she will be effected by the actions if these parents and not in a good way. Teachers will be affraid ofndoing anything to manage a class room for fear that any action will come back to bite them. Also if these acuaations are being blown out of proportion I hope that Mrs Russell seeks legal representation and files a lawsuit for slander. I'm done posting on here I just hope others will join in support for Mrs Russell.

-- Posted by Ori--n on Sun, Jun 5, 2011, at 9:43 AM

Ori--n, The best possible action that Mrs.Russell could have taken would to have picked up her phone that is placed in her room and call for help. I know that teacher is not left alone all day by herself...that being said if she didnt have a phone or a teacher aide then why didnt she send one of the other students out to get help? Come on the Teacher has DONE WRONG AND IT KEEPS COUNTINING. Mr.Tippin or Mrs. Lovejoy or the School board has done nothing. If so why wont they show the parents the plan of action that they say they did to her back in August. Why did she right apology letters? Why did Mr.Tippin say he should of handled it differently, why wasnt Mrs Lovejoy not notified about this until October when it happened in August? Answer all of those being you know what all has happened and you know the truth of everyone. Come on all of you answer these questions. I would be glad to make up a questionaire for everyone that is for Mr.Tippin, Mrs.Russell, Mrs. Lovejoy and the school board. Lets here it , I want to hear it all.........

-- Posted by Roachdale Resident on Sun, Jun 5, 2011, at 11:38 AM

Airondocks, and a question for you, Who might this person be that has sued somewhere else? Tell it I would like to know, I dont but my nose into others business but when it involves my children then I do. I have no idea what people do or say or how they live or where they come from, I try and stay clear of drama, but like I said when it comes to my children and other children and there well being and safety u better believe I am up for a get down to business meeting with all who is involved.

-- Posted by Roachdale Resident on Sun, Jun 5, 2011, at 11:44 AM

There is no question about the correct action Russell should have taken. It's very clearly stated in the child's IEP. He is to go to a safe designated person when he is upset or needing individual assistance. Part of the problem is that the school did not heed the recommendations from the person who acted in that capacity the year before. Proper supports were not put in place at the beginning of the year. However, ultimately, Russell is responsible for her own poor choices and actions that day-and deciding to make her own rules instead of following the guidelines of the IEP is not only inappropriate but against the law. As far as a lawsuit for slander? The school and others involved in this case have all the documentation necessary to refute that. Obviously the parent involved has tried to avoid legal action by allowing the school and Russell every opportunity to do the right thing. There are many people that would have seen this as an opportunity to sue for monetary damages long before now. As far as I'm concerned, Russell should thank her lucky stars it hasn't gone that far.

-- Posted by all4advocacy on Sun, Jun 5, 2011, at 12:37 PM

I still say you are all to quick to convict. The bottom line is most who have had her think of her as angood teacher. I just talked to one of the mothers involved and she was verry turned off by the witch hunt mantality and I'm going to get her frame of mind. Aparently she has been fishing for something to get her on most of the year. Keep it up ladies continue to destroy the school system.

-- Posted by Ori--n on Sun, Jun 5, 2011, at 1:42 PM

Ment to say a friend of one^g the mothers involved

-- Posted by Ori--n on Sun, Jun 5, 2011, at 1:46 PM

There's something being covered up here and the people in charge are not disclosing all they know.

-- Posted by obeone on Mon, Jun 6, 2011, at 10:19 AM

How do you know that. This is like me accusing you of doing something legs say being addicted to pills and because I said it that's just the way it is.

-- Posted by Ori--n on Mon, Jun 6, 2011, at 11:37 AM

If you were innocent,wouldn't you defend or at least explane your actions,why has the door suddenly been removed and the room cleaned up,ie:boxes removed,what are they tring to hide?

-- Posted by obeone on Mon, Jun 6, 2011, at 3:19 PM

Ori--n - I am sure that the students and parents that think that Ms. Russell is a good teacher were never a victim of Ms. Russell's confinement. She had no business putting that child in a supply closet--I don't care what the reason! Why is it that you assume that the parents are the one's that are lying or making things up. It seems to me that you are commenting on something that you know nothing about. The supply closet was altered before the paper was allowed to photograph it, and Tippin admitted it. If there was nothing wrong with locking that child in the supply closet, why alter it? One reason only--someone is trying to cover their butt. That is dishonest, and he knows it!! This whole problem started because they did not follow this child's IEP, which they are required to do by law. You may not like it or agree with it, but it is the law. The only reason this teacher might be sorry for what she did (and it doesn't seem like she has any remorse), is because she got caught. She is a special education teacher, and she should know better!

-- Posted by Seashell2464 on Mon, Jun 6, 2011, at 3:28 PM

Bottom line, teachers have broken policy and laws, which need to be handled properly. I personally did not have direct issues with this teacher, but the comments on fb were in fact ridiculous for a special education teacher to say. I do not want my children being taught by a teacher with this attitude. The closet incident did happen, was admitted, apology letters sent but 6 almost 7 months later..Are you kidding me? No way is this acceptable to our children no matter what!! Our children deserve respect just the same as adults. Our children learn what they are taught, is this how you would want your disabled child to be treated little alone taught that this is appropriate behavior to shut someone in a small room that was used for storage all because the teacher didn't want to listen to his IEP or him? I know that more incidents have happened, so why should we stand by to wait how she or the others abuse our children more or maybe next time worse? This needs to be handled immediately and there should be NO hesitation that this is not what a special eduaction teachers attitude should be like!!

-- Posted by VBL resident on Tue, Jun 7, 2011, at 1:55 AM

If you know other incidents have happened then tell us what they are otherwise stop stirring the pot. That is the witch hunt mentality I am talking about. You all say you know what happened in that room and you know that things are being covered up. So where is your truth other than a removed door.

-- Posted by Ori--n on Tue, Jun 7, 2011, at 8:10 AM

A removed door to perhaps cover up a lock on that door,witch was said did not exsist,but now can't be proved or investagated,witch leads us to beleive a cover-up is beeing done.Reasonable doubt?

-- Posted by obeone on Tue, Jun 7, 2011, at 8:35 AM

The inmates have overtaken the asylum.

-- Posted by USAirman on Tue, Jun 7, 2011, at 10:10 AM