GCSC contract unrest points to statewide issue

Thursday, November 7, 2019
Jeff Hubble

A show of solidarity by Greencastle teachers Wednesday evening was likely just the shadow of what state lawmakers will be hearing from teachers and other school officials from around the state in less than two weeks.

With the final approval of the contract between Greencastle Community Schools and the Greencastle Classroom Teachers Association (GCTA) set for a special meeting Wednesday, a number of teachers stood outside before the meeting, expressing their displeasure with the current state of affairs.

However, what was rumored to be a protest wound up a discussion, with teachers airing their critiques of the current state of affairs while board members and administrators listened, agreeing to work better together moving forward.

Perhaps most telling, both teachers and administrators have agreed to take part in a Red for Ed Action Day on Tuesday, Nov. 19 at the Indiana Statehouse.

Not only does the date fall during American Education Week, it also happens to be Organization Day for the Indiana General Assembly.

For parents in Greencastle Community Schools, this means there will be an e-learning day on Nov. 19, an announcement Superintendent Jeff Hubble planned to formally make on Friday.

Just as if that were a snow day, students will stay home from school, performing assignments on their electronic devices or other assignments as assigned.

During a year in which pay raises were not possible for Greencastle teachers or any other staff members, granting the request for the e-learning day was one concession the corporation could make to the teachers.

“When we went to the table for negotiations, there obviously wasn’t much to give,” GCTA President Kristien Hamilton, a middle school math teacher, told the Banner Graphic.

She said it was important that as many teachers as possible be able to take part in the rally.

“If they didn’t grant it as an e-learning day, then not everybody would be able to partake in it,” Hamilton said.

For Hubble, with nothing to give financially after Greencastle lost 53 students (a $323,300 budget hit) since last year’s count day, granting the teachers’ request regarding the Red for Ed rally doesn’t seem to have been that difficult.

In fact, the superintendent seems to see it as an opportunity for teachers, administrators, staff members and anyone else who wants to take part to have their voices heard at the Statehouse.

“Let’s show solidarity with administrators and teachers going to Indianapolis to talk to legislators about spending money more wisely and get more money to the classrooms,” Hubble said.

Squarely in the crosshairs of the crowd are likely to be both charter school funding and funding for statewide standardized testing.

“It’s an opportunity for us, not to close school and have a make-up day,” Hubble said, “but use our e-learning day so that our teachers, administrators and anybody to go to Indianapolis and wear Red for Ed and tell our legislators we want our money spent wisely.”

During negotiations, the GCTA requested the use of Greencastle buses to transport teachers. The problem was paying for the fuel. However, the GCTA will pay for the fuel and later be reimbursed by the Indiana State Teachers Association (ISTA), which is organizing the rally.

“We said we were going to pay for them anyway before we knew about the reimbursement,” Hamilton said.

With the buses secured, Hubble said it opens the door for even more people from Greencastle to go, should they so choose.

“If there’s a community group that wants to go, we can take large groups over to Indy to communicate the message,” he said.

Hamilton said the plan is for buses to leave Greencastle at 7 a.m. and then leave Indianapolis around 2:30 p.m. More details on travel and the actual event will be printed in an upcoming edition of the Banner Graphic.

At the end of a negotiation process that left a sour taste in teachers’ mouths, Hamilton felt the gesture from Hubble was meaningful.

“Mr. Hubble did that as a gesture of good faith — we’re in this together and it’s not us against you,” she said.

While the e-learning day is sure to place a strain on some families, the administration and teachers hope families will understand.

“We appreciate everyone’s understanding, as we have to advocate for public education,” Hubble said. “We appreciate their support and even attending if they can.”

On Wednesday evening, though, the show of solidarity was firmly by the teachers, letting the board and administration know they want to see changes at the local level as well.

Bearing signs with slogans such as “Teaching should not be a debt sentence,” educators stood outside central office until shortly before the 4 p.m. meeting before entering in solidarity.

“We thought it was important and necessary at this time,” Hamilton said. “We plan to be outside of every board meeting with signs. That’s something we plan to do to keep the momentum going.”

While the teachers expressed that they understood some students had been lost, they felt that the administration could have done a better job of planning for such a scenario.

One teacher expressed her frustration at what she sees as “fluff” at the central office — spending that could be better utilized in the classroom.

“Changes have to be in place,” Hamilton said. “There have to be cuts and it can’t just be on our side.”

The suggestion was made by a teacher that the budget needs to be watched closely month to month.

With this in mind, Hubble suggested the creation of a joint task force of teachers and administrators to scrutinize the budget and see where the money lost can be made up.

“You’ll be involved in helping us look at the budget and how we can tighten our belt to make sure we don’t overspend in the budget,” Hubble said. “I think anything can be on the table. We’re going to try and avoid cutting staff.”

Hubble figures that in an annual budget of $12 million, it’s about two percent of the total that they’re looking for.

“It’s a concern. It has to be taken very seriously,” he said. “We can overcome 2 percent by being smart in the next 14 months. We can also look at how we’re going go even more conservative in the 2021 budget.”

Hubble also said that he, Assistant Superintendent Donovan Garletts and Finance Director Kellie Romer will be looking much more closely at spending.

As for the enrollment drop, Hubble said he hopes it’s a one-time issue.

“I’m hoping it’s a blip in the data and not the beginning of a trend like it is in other Putnam County schools,” Hubble said. “We believe there is some connection to people not working at DePauw anymore (pointing out that a number of the moves were out of state).”

Hubble also pointed out that Greencastle Schools employees had gotten raises for the last six years and he hopes the freeze will be for this year only.

As for the teachers outside the meeting, the Hubble said he appreciated their concern and the opinions they expressed once the meeting commenced.

“It was a show of solidarity and professional communication and I really appreciate that,” Hubble said.

As for the actual business of the meeting, the contract — which had been agreed upon by the administration and the GCTA — was formally approved on Wednesday.


Staff Writer Brand Selvia contributed to this report.

Comments
View 36 comments
Note: The nature of the Internet makes it impractical for our staff to review every comment. Please note that those who post comments on this website may do so using a screen name, which may or may not reflect a website user's actual name. Readers should be careful not to assign comments to real people who may have names similar to screen names. Refrain from obscenity in your comments, and to keep discussions civil, don't say anything in a way your grandmother would be ashamed to read.
  • *

    Gall: bold and impudent behavior.

    See; Greencastle Classroom Teachers Association and Indiana State Teachers Association.

    Taking a paid day off of work to complain about your pay - when by your taking that day off (and using an E-learning day) you show that you really aren't needed to educate as much as you think - shows real gall.

    More commentary coming...

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 11:23 AM
  • All our statehouse does is rob Putnam County kids of funds that should be allotted to them from our tax dollars. Almost $1 million GONE each year to subsidize education that our children don't have access too.

    https://www.bannergraphic.com/story/2497965.html

    I would absolutely LOVE for our state leaders to give clarity on why they think its ok for their districts to lose money and subsidize education youth in our community do not have access to.

    This shouldn't be a Democrat/Republican issue but a local issue that has great impact. This is why so many local red counties across Indiana are having to choose tax referendums to finance education in their districts. These short sighted policies will have long-term results that will make youth in Indiana less competitive in the long run of economic development.

    I will gladly watch my children on e-learning day so that our administrators, teachers, and other folks can voice their opinions.

    -- Posted by mattwcummings on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 11:49 AM
  • Last time I checked there are weekends and a whole summer where these teachers could go and protest at the state house without disrupting parents work schedules. Let me be clear that I don't have a problem with these protests, however, to inconvenience parents when you have other options probably is going to turn off some of the very people who you need to support your cause. Additionally, using an e-learning day for this that may be needed for future snow days seems very short sighted by the administrators.

    -- Posted by hometownboy on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 12:00 PM
  • *

    So, in case anyone is actually interested in knowing what it is that teachers in GCSC get re: pay and benefits as well as extra pay for coaching and sponsoring ECAs... here is the current contract (from what I have been able to find):

    http://www.greencastle.k12.in.us/UserFiles/Servers/Server_231111/Image/2019-2020...

    Good luck getting anything close to this in the private sector.

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 12:53 PM
  • *

    According to the NEA (Teachers Union; see ISTA& GCTA):

    Average starting pay for teachers per state:

    IN = $36k

    IL = $39k

    KY = $37k

    MI = $36.5k

    OH = $36k

    In Greencastle (per the contract posted previously), the starting teacher makes $35k + benefits (which when added up would add likely another $3k-$5k).

    Per the Greencastle wikipedia page (2000 census data); the median household earned $30k, while the median family income was $41k. If we assume a 4% growth (very generous),

    Per several other resources, the current average yearly income for 46135 is $33k. (Does not include the benefits that teachers get.)

    I would say that the teachers of GCSC get paid pretty well all things considered - after all, its not like they are teaching in IPS (Indianapolis) or CPS (Chicago) or LAUSD (Los Angeles).

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 1:28 PM
  • dreadpirateroberts,

    You should also adjust that salary to reflect teachers ACTUAL work time (36 weeks of actual school work plus ~1 week of additional in-service days) means that teachers only work ~70% of the year. If you adjust their salary to full time equivalent then the starting salary is really more like $50K. And that doesn't factor in benefits which are more generous than most local families could dream of.

    -- Posted by hometownboy on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 1:51 PM
  • *

    MattWCummings:

    You are right, it should not be a Dem/Rep issue but a matter of local finance.

    But please don't think for a minute that those attending this rally are looking to actually correct the horrible situation that was started in the 1970s and subsequently made worse every time it was touched.

    Those attending simply want more feed from the trough.

    The problem is one that both sides have contributed to, and the teachers have done nothing to help it either.

    Local schools used to be funded by local property taxes. Then the State decided that instead they were going to funnel all money through the State and disperse as they saw fit. (In a quest for equity/fairness amongst school districts...in other words, a redistribution of resources...which is socialism.)

    Of course when you add layers of bureaucracy you have to pay for it. So your $100 of tax money for schools is now only $85.

    Then they realized that if the State pays per student (as calculated during "head-count"), then its only fair that parents be allowed to take those $$ to where they want to send their kids... school choice & vouchers.

    Now the teachers at the "poor schools" (defined by several criteria) started fighting against school choice b/c they are on the short end of the funding stick.

    The teachers union (NEA/ISTA/GCTA) go to bat for their union brethren b/c if one gets a raise (extra money) then they should all get a raise.

    The problem is that the teachers union doesn't want to apply any actual standards to determine if a teacher is WORTH that money (or any money for that matter). Any objective standard (testing) is derided as "not fair" (for a number of reasons). Unfortunately, without some kind of standard to get rid of bad teachers, the bad teachers will still be there poorly teaching. And so the problem continues.

    And the teachers union doesn't want to fix the ACTUAL problem (the State funding what should be a local funding system) b/c it is much easier to make a lot of noise and get the folks in Indianapolis to give them more money than to actually go to those people who are relying on them to educate their kids and ask for money when they may not deserve it.

    Solutions:

    1) Return public school funding back to the local school districts - this would end school choice vouchers and REAL school choice would be made by moving to the school district you want to be in.

    2) End the NEA/ISTA/GCTA - Public sector unions are a pernicious evil. (End ALL public sector unions.)

    Doing these two things will allow market forces to work as they should and let local communities decide how much they should pay their teachers.

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 1:57 PM
  • *

    Hometownboy -

    Yes, if you look at the contract (link previously provided) that they get paid every two weeks for the entire year.

    So they are drawing a salary even when they are not working.

    I made mention of the benefits. :) I did not calculate them, but I KNOW that is better than most others have in the school district. For instance they get $50k of term life insurance for $1. Likewise with Long-term Disability Insurance.

    They also get to accumulate sick days over the course of their employment (up to 104 days), where they can take a pay-out of any unused at a rate of $100/day. If one could rack up 104 days of sick time over the course of their career, that is just over $10,000. Bonus!

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 2:11 PM
  • *

    And the teacher that held a sign saying this:

    “Teaching should not be a debt sentence”

    Should be identified and run out of town!

    No one put them in debt but themselves.

    No one forced them to become a teacher.

    If they cannot accept the repercussions of their personal choices, then why would we want this person teaching our children?!?!

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 2:16 PM
  • dreadpirateroberts,

    Have you ever planned twenty-five speeches a week, along with various other activities for six classes/day five days a week? Don’t forget to vary assignments and strategies to reach several different learning types. Also, adjust every assignment, quiz, and test to meet all special ed needs. Have you returned those important special education reports? Attended those case conferences?

    Have you emailed parents yet? Gotten homework together for all of your absent students? Don’t forget to stay up late to make sure you can return those tests tomorrow and enter those grades in the electronic grade book. What? Is that difficult? Do you have searing pain in your wrists yet, because you typed twenty-five-page papers to earn a Masters degree—while also working full time and taking care of a family?

    How many meetings and conferences have you been involved with this week that took away precious planning time? Did you cover your colleagues classes because there is a substitute teacher shortage—often adding a class to your already-full classroom? Are you going to stay after school and/or show up early to tutor struggling students? Scaffolded those lesson plans for high-ability students yet?

    Have you revised your curriculum and attended technology training yet? I know you want to do that for two or three hours after teaching classes all day. Don’t worry. You can do some of this in the summer you have “off.” Please read all the new materials for a new class your taking on next school year also during your summer “off.”

    Don’t forget to coach a sport or up to three like some of our teachers. How many sport camps are you taking your teams to or holding on your summer “off?” Better get on that since every sport you coach now has to be year-round to be competitive. What? You haven’t planned your off-season conditioning yet?

    Sports not your thing? How about an academic team? You need to meet with them on weekends, because students are involved in too many other things during the week. How many clubs do you sponsor? Are you going to help decorate for prom or homecoming this year?

    But wait, Open House and Parent/Teacher conferences are coming up. Are you prepared for that time outside of the contract day—even though you communicate with parents anytime necessary?

    How many students this week have you listened to tell or write a heart-wrenching story that you need to report to guidance?

    I almost forgot, have you uploaded absolutely everything to Canvas? Don’t forget to plan those field trip—some in the evenings, on weekends, and during summers “off.”

    Do you need to go to the doctor for neck pain caused by hours at a computer? Have you met your $12,000 deductible yet? Better just buy some IcyHot and aspirin.

    Have you cried yourself to sleep yet because no matter how much you do it’s not enough? Do you constantly feel like you’re failing as a teacher, parent, or spouse?

    I love teaching and can’t imagine doing anything else, BUT I earn every red cent I’m paid. Attitudes like yours are part of the reason both Indiana and our country is facing an unprecedented teacher shortage. Unless you’ve walked in a teacher’s shoes, you have no idea how much we deserve.

    Nicole Burkhalter (I don’t hide behind a screen name)

    Latin Teacher

    English Teacher

    English Team Coach

    Interdisciplinary Team Coach

    Latin Club Sponsor

    Climate Committee Member

    PASS Committee Member

    Taken Students to Italy During my Summer “Off” going on six times

    Former: Spell Bowl Coach, National Honor Society Sponsor, and GCTA President—I’ve cut back due to an autoimmune disease probably caused by not taking good care of myself for years.

    Again, I don’t want pity. I LOVE my job and students, but a bit a respect would be great!

    -- Posted by nkempf on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 6:22 PM
  • Bless you nkempf. You and many others are tremendously appreciated

    -- Posted by Nit on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 7:21 PM
  • I’m concerned by the administration characterizing the budget deficit as being due to a “blip” regarding decreased enrollment that they hope isn’t “the beginning of a trend”. A quick search shows the enrollment for 13/14 as being 2047 students, for 14/15 as 1989 students, 15/16 as 1951, 16/17 as 1927, 17/18 as 1916, and 18/19 as 1888. How is that not already a trend? How are the people who are responsible for GCSC’s finances not ALREADY taking more care to watch spending?

    -- Posted by SouthCounty700 on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 8:22 PM
  • Well said, Nicole!!!

    -- Posted by Moretothestory on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 9:38 PM
  • It is very obvious to me than none of you "naysayers" have set foot in any school since you all left high school. I can tell by your comments you lack the decent ability to show compassion.

    Being a teacher in today's classroom is nothing like it was when I was in high school. There are students who are able to curse a teacher, walk out of class if they want to, show no respect to anyone let alone a teacher. The stress in school nowadays is terrible.

    DreadPiratesRobert: you bash anything and everything and to tell you the truth I am tired reading your ranting about teachers. I would bet you were the kid in school who caused the most trouble he could get away with. Why, with your great knowledge, don't you go and be a substitute teacher, work with a kindergarten class, then try to work with a high school class. "Take your head of you-know-where".

    -- Posted by donantonio on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 10:14 PM
  • Two additions:

    1. My post should also be addressed to Hometownboy.

    2. Please excuse my errors. I teach English, but I was anger typing and hit post before I was finished proofreading. Lol :)

    Nicole Burkhalter

    My name has changed since I made this account. I don’t mind screen names, but I think it’s cowardly to be so hateful without owning your disrespectful words.

    -- Posted by nkempf on Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 10:57 PM
  • Greencastle administration and school board are completely asleep at the wheel. How can you get caught flat footed with a decline in enrollment in today’s day and age? Deflect attention to your malpractice by blaming the statehouse and putting teachers in charge of the budget is insanity. The taxpayer as usual takes the backseat. If the teachers are going to do the budget then why even have administrators?

    -- Posted by taylortwp on Sat, Nov 9, 2019, at 11:42 AM
  • I had to quit reading the moronic comments about how “greedy” and “selfish” teachers are being regarding the November 19th “eLearning Day”, which by the way doesn't take away the availability to use them if necessary for snow.

    Indiana is in the bottom ten states for teacher pay and our current state leadership has been less than supportive of public education. Yes, we are paid all 12 months of the year. That is not us being paid for time off, but instead it is stretching our salary out over 12 months. If you really want to know how much we make then you need to take into account the countless hours we spend before and after the school day, over the weekend’s, and holidays.

    In addition to being a teacher, I have two children who are students in the District. I also support their teachers and am so incredibly thankful for the education that they have received here in Greencastle. If you have never lived anywhere else, you may not understand how great our schools here are and I want to keep them that way.

    The people who are calling us greedy upset me. Do you realize that our "Summers off" are filled with teaching summer school..... Yes!!! Several of us are still teaching to make sure that your children gain the necessary skills to move on to the next grade come August. If we aren't teaching we are at professional development or planning for the new school year.

    Sure I’ve taught your children, but I have also clothed your children, bought them deodorant, shampoo, coats, belts, and hats. I’ve bought your daughter pads and tampons, and food and snacks for your children who were hungry. I’ve bought enough school supplies for your child and for my classroom that I could have opened an office supply store. I’ve counseled them over a break-up and I’ve given more hugs than I’ll ever be able to count. I’ve spent time away from my own children to attend their award ceremony, competition, or sporting event. I’ve cheered for them when you couldn’t and I’ve dried their tears when they needed someone to talk to other than you. And ultimately, I would lay my life down for your child if put in that situation. So, call me a lot of things but “greedy” shouldn’t be one of them.

    It takes a village to raise children and without your support more educated, passionate, loyal people will leave education because they can’t provide for their families on what we make. Instead of complaining, support the hard working men and women who teach and love your children, quit voting for people who don’t make supporting public education a priority, and ask what YOU can do to help...❤️

    I am also not afraid to hide behind a name.

    Kristien Hamilton

    Greencastle Middle School

    7th grade Math teacher

    MATHCOUNTS Sponsor

    Math Tutor

    Member of many GCSC Committees

    GCTA Union President and previously Vice President

    Parent

    Volunteer

    Taxpayer........

    -- Posted by Kristien97 on Sat, Nov 9, 2019, at 1:03 PM
  • Kristien97,

    You are sending home kids on short notice for an optional protest that could be held on any other day where they’re not scheduled to be in school and expecting parents to miss work to allow you to do this. That is my complaint. Why not do this on a Saturday , over the summer, or on the 2 week fall break you just had?

    Also, you do realize that your description of your job applies to everyone who is salaried (I work extra hours and over holidays without additional pay too) except I don’t get 3 months off in the summer. Oh and I don’t get ANY retirement other than what I save on my own, and pay the FULL cost of my health insurance.

    I’m not saying teachers are greedy. What I am saying is that when you take into account flexible schedules and benefits you’re pretty well compensated.

    -- Posted by hometownboy on Sat, Nov 9, 2019, at 2:58 PM
  • I didn’t write this but I think this is a good one to share.

    “Many teachers have used their personal time to write emails, letters, make many phone calls and have smaller rallies to show how much we support more funding for ourselves as well as the education of your children. However, our voices have not been heard and we have decided to take the day to show that many teachers that feel the same way and want out request/ demands met. If you are upset, I think you have two options. Option one, write your legislators and tell them to give us what we expect. Option two, write your legislators and tell them to work on Saturday so that we can rally on our own time.”

    -- Posted by kburnham1521 on Sat, Nov 9, 2019, at 6:52 PM
  • Teachers shouldn't be buying deodorant..shampoo..food..clothing especially tampons. And if you are that's on you. But I will say shame on th parents. For not providing. I know each teacher feels a responsibility when they see a child that us hungry. And I get that but it is not the teachersr responsibility. As for school supplies we always bought out own. Paper, pens and other school supplies are so cheap there is no reason for a teacher to purchase these items. And if you are over worked please dont sign up for any committee, extra curricular activity, coach or assistant coach. We all get you love your job and the students but you can't so it all.

    -- Posted by canttakeitanymore on Sat, Nov 9, 2019, at 9:54 PM
  • 53 less students. Work the math from there. That's at least a total of 2 classrooms.

    And, please, don't pretend that you need to keep each grade separate. The facts dispute this.

    There are other states in the US with even lower teacher pay than IN.

    And, in 2019, more and more families are choosing to homeschool which is a real option.

    -- Posted by letspulltogether on Sat, Nov 9, 2019, at 11:07 PM
  • looks like one of the more engaged responders has left the conversation after being challenged.

    -- Posted by beg on Sun, Nov 10, 2019, at 10:18 PM
  • *

    To the teachers who responded:

    For being educated people, you clearly have reading comprehension issues.

    Not once did I call anyone greedy or selfish. This whole discussion is not (nor ever was) a personal attack on you or your profession.

    What I said was that I think that it takes nerve to take a day off of work and have the kids learn from a computer when that day off is to go tell the legislature that you want more pay to educate the kids. (That you cannot see the irony in this is a bit astounding.)

    As already mentioned by someone else - if you do all those other things; that is on you. As a taxpayer and a parent - I only ask the teachers to teach the children. (We can argue whether or not that is being done...per test scores.)

    I also said that I believe that you (as teachers) make a very good living considering your pay scale and benefits.

    If you wish to make me the arbiter of your worthiness and then feel slighted by it, that is on you.

    If not, then my opinion is simply that - my opinion.

    If you feel stressed, over-worked, or bothered in any other way about what you have taken on: talk to your superiors about changing conditions, or talk to the man in the mirror about the choices you make.

    Everything I posted is either my opinion or facts gathered that buttress that opinion.

    I expect teachers to teach and parents to parent.

    Its really a pretty simple concept.

    Now, if you wish to actually discuss the topic at hand, it is: Do teachers make enough money?

    Without personal anecdotes about what "you" do above and beyond - show me some empirical evidence such as I did comparing teacher pay per our state and surrounding states. ECAs, sports, and summer school are all paid above and beyond your contract pay. Nor are they mandatory.

    As for my "hiding" behind a screen name: For one, that's b/c I have children in this school system and I know this town too well to not believe that there would be retaliation on my children for my opinions. Perhaps not by you posters personally, but I have seen it happen to my children and others in the past.

    Besides, I have been posting under this name for some time...its not a new thing.

    Beg - LOL, nope. Not gone. I generally don't post on the weekends. Too busy. But I am glad that you care enough to notice I wasn't there. :)

    Don Antonio - the conditions you ascribe to schools these days are b/c of leftist ideas that have turned schools into day-care centers. I don't blame the teachers - that is b/c of politicians, bureaucrats, and administrators. (And to a large extent the parents and voters that allow them to do it.) But I do notice that the teachers don't protest the things that lead to these conditions. They just protest for more money.

    I observe things. Again, if there is actual evidence that this isn't so - please provide it.

    And I just may be a substitute teacher...ever consider that?

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Mon, Nov 11, 2019, at 9:45 AM
  • dreadpirateroberts - 'hiding behind a screen name' If what you post you feel is correct and your statements do not hurt anyone, then why are you still using a screen name to protect your children? If the truth is spoken then there would not be any retaliation whatsoever from anyone.

    -- Posted by Nit on Mon, Nov 11, 2019, at 10:40 AM
  • *

    Nit - LOL. How long have you lived in Greencastle?

    Telling the truth is EXACTLY what will cause people to retaliate against my children.

    Perhaps you are a much more optimistic person in regards to human nature than I am. That's all good. But I have personal experience and history that shades my view.

    And I don't consider it "hiding behind a screen name". As I have repeatedly stated in the past:

    Those that know me, know its me. Those that ask me my opinion on these things will get the same response whether in person or online... if I decide to opine openly.

    Knowing my identity does nothing to further the facts that I have presented, nor does it affect my opinion. I am just one guy with a thought (or several).

    But think about this: Read ALL of my comments. Just mine. You will see that I gave opinion, supporting facts, and some kind of solution to the problem as I see it. My solution is pro-freedom, pro-Constitution, pro-teacher, pro-parent, pro-child, and pro-community. I support small government, local government, and personal freedom.

    If I need to further articulate, I would be happy to do so. I have a lot of respect for most teachers. I also have the same amount of respect for the guy doing dishes at the diner. Both made career choices. Both can change careers if they wish. As long as both do their jobs (teach my children or make sure that I am eating with clean tableware, respectively) - I am satisfied.

    Now, read the replies that disagree with me... and you will see that they did not actually counter what I said. They simply give their opinion as to why the teachers should get more money. Fair enough, they are welcome to their opinion. But they rely on anecdotal evidence (that was refuted or countered) and emotional testimony, and they give no address to the actual problems other than MORE MONEY.

    How has that worked for other places? Not very well. CPS (Chicago) has one of the highest "per pupil" spending rates in the country and is failing miserably as a school.

    So, my answer as a taxpayer to more money for the schools is: NO.

    Here is another little interesting fact:

    Since 1919-20, inflation adjusted, total per-pupil outlays have shot up from $609 to over $13,000.

    (Per: https://www.cato.org/blog/show-me-education-money )

    Do you really think that kids today are better educated now vs then?

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Mon, Nov 11, 2019, at 12:31 PM
  • dreadpirateroberts,

    This rally needs to be during the week when our representatives are actually at the State House. You’re proof that more people are actually paying attention because of the timing. Also, if you believe this outrage is solely about salaries, you don’t keep up with current events as much as you claim. Teachers did try a Saturday rally first. According to the Indianapolis Star:

    Earlier this year, they rallied at the Statehouse, but on a Saturday so as not to miss school.

    ARIKA HERRON | INDIANAPOLIS STAR | 2:04 pm EST November 7, 2019

    Additionally, when was the last time you met a teacher who’s never coached or sponsored other extracurricular activities? They don’t exist. Why? Because teachers, especially young teachers, are trying to make ends meet while usually paying off college debt on that $35,000 salary. Many times teachers are hired based on the additional extra activities they are willing to coach or sponsor; my requirement was to start a Spell Bowl Team from scratch. Your argument to this point only shows exactly how out-of-touch you truly are when it comes to teachers. Just because we feel stressed and overworked at times, doesn’t mean we should all cut back or quit. If so, there wouldn’t be any teachers left.

    I didn’t pay for two degrees and classes beyond my Master’s to sit back and not fight for the same respect as other hardworking professionals with similar educational investments. So, I refuse to allow you or anyone else to disrespect a job I love; and, yes, that is absolutely what you do.

    Teachers don’t mind accountability. We want fair accountability. Follow the money. Testing at all levels is the biggest money-making fraud there is—the possible exception being for-profit charter schools.

    I will admit that your writing style and statistics are impressive. You must have had some impressive teachers.

    BUT, if you think your rhetoric isn’t disrespectful to them and all other teachers, you’re delusional. You may not have used the word, “greedy;” but if you don’t know that is what you were 100% saying, then you’re the one who needs to brush up on reading comprehension. You stated, “Those attending want more feed from the trough.” Please, you have to know that sounds hateful.

    Sincerely,

    Nicole Burkhalter

    nicolek158@yahoo.com in case you would like to communicate as your true self. Otherwise, I’m out. You don’t think I risk backlash by giving my name? Nothing you say will convince me that making comments like yours under a pseudonym isn’t cowardly.

    -- Posted by nkempf on Mon, Nov 11, 2019, at 3:29 PM
  • *

    "when was the last time you met a teacher who’s never coached or sponsored other extracurricular activities?" There are a lot of teachers that do not do this.

    "Because teachers, especially young teachers, are trying to make ends meet while usually paying off college debt on that $35,000 salary."

    That is a problem with the cost of a college education. Not the taxpayer's problem.

    "my requirement was to start a Spell Bowl Team from scratch"

    Your requirement was set by the school. You could've chosen to teach at another school. The taxpayers are not out there clamoring for you (or any other teacher) to start a spellbowl team. We would be happy if you just taught the kids how to read, write, do math, and maybe some civics and history.

    "I didn’t pay for two degrees and classes beyond my Master’s to sit back and not fight for the same respect as other hardworking professionals with similar educational investments".

    Teachers are only required to have a BA or BS. Anything above that was your choice, above the choice of getting into teaching. (I was always told that teachers don't get into teaching for the money. But in your case it seems that $$=Respect, and that is exactly what you are chasing.)

    "disrespect a job I love"

    Again, I am not disrespecting the job of teacher. It is a noble profession with a very long history. I am disrespecting the teachers union. (All public sector unions are evil.)

    I am also saying "NO" to your demand for more money for your salary and/or your classroom. (See my last post re: the cost of education 1920 vs now.)

    I give respect where it is warranted. Emotional blackmail and using kids as human shields - not warranted.

    "Teachers don’t mind accountability."

    You, and the NEA, and the rest of the teacher's cabal vehemently oppose standardized testing...so what kind of objective accountability do you propose? I too oppose standardized testing, but there must be an objective standard by which to measure a teacher's performance. If you have a better solution, I would love to hear it. As it is, standardized testing is the only tool by which to objectively measure a teacher's job performance.

    "biggest money-making fraud"..."for-profit charter schools".

    This is a big tell in regards to your unionist feelings. For-profit schools must compete for dollars and show results to stay in the game. This is the classic 'public vs private' argument wherein the public side faces little competition and therefore has no incentive to be competitive and the private sector must always be competitive to stay alive. (As alluded to earlier, this is why the teachers union doesn't like charter schools and vouchers...it forces them to be competitive, effective, and efficient for $$.)

    “Those attending want more feed from the trough.”

    I stand by that. Those attending are unionists, or fellow travellers. This is not disrespectful to the teachers as a profession, but again to the public sector union.

    If you, as an individual, having negotiated a contract with the school decided you wanted/needed more salary - you could renegotiate your contract. If the school wanted to keep you bad enough, they would figure out a way to do it, or say bye. No one is saying you can't ask for more money for you.

    But that's not what this is about. It is about you - as a union member - asking the legislature for more money for ALL the teachers without any scrutiny of what we (as taxpayers) get in return for the extra money. Where is the accountability in this system? If it were all done at the local level (as I mentioned much earlier) then accountability would be at the school administration/school board/classroom level. If you deserved more pay, you should get more pay.

    It should be a merit-based system, not a unionist scheme.

    "You don’t think I risk backlash by giving my name?"

    No, I don't think you do? Why? B/c the school administration (the only ones that could cause you problems) is in your corner b/c they will get a bigger piece of pie at taxpayer expense as well.

    "Nothing you say will convince me that making comments like yours under a pseudonym isn’t cowardly."

    That just shows that you are close-minded, intolerant of disagreeing opinions, and rigid in your thinking. A teacher should always be open to exploring other perspectives...or is that just lip service?

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Mon, Nov 11, 2019, at 5:22 PM
  • Dreadpirateroberts,

    You posted

    “ *

    And the teacher that held a sign saying this:

    “Teaching should not be a debt sentence”

    Should be identified and run out of town!”

    I am that teacher- I find your opinion that I should be run out of town in direct conflict with your reply to Nicole Burkhalter. Your post to her said

    That just shows that you are close-minded, intolerant of disagreeing opinions, and rigid in your thinking”

    You are asking others to be open- minded, tolerant of disagreeing opinions and flexible in their thinking, yet you state I should be run out of town because of my opinion.

    All of the teachers posting on this article have been open with their identity. I offer you an invitation to come to our schools, complete a background check and volunteer some time to help our students. Here is your chance to put some action behind your words and help make our community a better place.

    Beva Miller

    Martha J. Ridpath Primary School

    2nd Grade Teacher

    -- Posted by bevaallmanmiller on Mon, Nov 11, 2019, at 6:32 PM
  • Boy. That escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand.

    I read this article right after it was published and thought, "Wow. Good on you, Greencastle. Way to show your teachers you value them." Then I came back some time later and saw there were a lot of comments and thought, "Wow. There must be a lot of people ready and willing to show the teachers of Greencastle how much they value them."

    Then I read the comments.

    I wish I didn't read the comments.

    Greencastle teachers, I hope you know you’re valued and appreciated. Teachers of Putnam County, I hope you know you’re valued and appreciated. A few nameless, faceless voices on the internet do not (I believe) represent our community as a whole. You do an important job, and you do it in good faith and to the best of your ability day in and day out. We see you getting to school early, and we see you staying late. We see you signing in to the building to get work done on Saturdays and Sundays. We see you going to professional development and honing your craft over the summer. We see you agonizing over lesson plans and pushing yourselves to reach each and every student in your classrooms.

    As a school counselor, I’m blown away by the dedication of the teachers with whom I work and the dignity with which they perform their duties. I also mourn the disparity between the value of these individuals and the salaries they receive. It’s not the school boards’ fault, and it’s not the superintendents’ fault. These are all good people doing the best they can within the system they’ve inherited. Please believe me when I say that anyone who works in education does it first and foremost because they feel called to work with young people. Parents, your children’s well being is always at the forefront of our county educators’ minds. That’s true from Roachdale to Cloverdale and everywhere in between.

    It's a fact that Indiana is in the midst of a teacher shortage. I can also tell you (yes, anecdotally...) that it's difficult to encourage bright young people who I'm confident would make good teachers to enter the education field at this time. Why would I condemn these young men and women I've come to love to a future of feeling perpetually undervalued and pressured by a state legislature that is seemingly always asking educators to do more and more? These young people who would make great teachers could be great at a lot of things. Why not be great at something that will allow them to make a comfortable living without being in college debt into their thirties? Why not let the market dictate where they end up?

    That's what we've been doing recently. And many of them have ended up in places other than education. So who will be replacing our retiring career educators in the coming years? Do parents really want their children being taught by people who entered the teaching field as a second or third choice? I would hope not. I would hope parents would want their students to have the best teachers possible in their classrooms. And I think anyone, anywhere along the political spectrum, can admit that money talks. Call it market forces; call it common sense. If you want to attract the best people for a job, you have to pay them what they're worth.

    While I'm on the subject, some people may invite current teachers to choose another profession if they want more money, and some teachers very well might. Do we really want these qualified individuals leaving the classroom, though? What does that say about how much we care about our children's education? Fortunately for our state's children, most of our teachers will probably never leave the profession because they feel a duty to serve students. Unfortunately for our county's students, there are school systems just one or two counties over who can offer teachers more money to do the same job based on their districts' tax bases. The eastward brain drain is real. How great would it be if our young aspiring teachers weren't getting poached by Avon and Brownsburg and Plainfield?

    I promise I'm wrapping up soon.

    This whole conversation happens with the backdrop of teachers' contracts being public knowledge. Gosh, that's scary. Growing up (I graduated from SPHS in 2007), I was taught it's not polite to discuss money. This is so uncomfortable because anyone can look up any teacher's salary scale and figure out basically how much he or she makes. Then we get into the comparison game, and no one wins that game. Putnam County is full of good, earnest people. Let's keep our discussion worthy of them.

    I never did learn how to close an essay. I'm sorry, Mrs. Dobson (though she's probably not reading this because she wouldn't allow herself to get pulled into the mudslinging of an internet comments section). I guess I'd just like to say there's plenty of room still for civil discussion. Also, I hope anyone who's reading this will consider calling their state legislators and asking them to listen to our educators and put their (our) money where their (their) mouth is.

    Unless you don't agree with me, in which case do the opposite. That's your right, too.

    Heath Pruitt

    (speaking for myself, not as a school employee)

    School Counselor

    South Putnam Middle and High School

    -- Posted by Pruitts on Mon, Nov 11, 2019, at 11:42 PM
  • *

    Beva Miller - Those two statements are not incongruous or in conflict:

    She said that nothing I say could change her mind about me. (This is a fact. She is planting her flag.)

    I said that if you believe that teaching is a debt sentence, you have no business being a teacher. (This is an opinion. Change my mind. I have made numerous statements to the effect that I would be willing to listen to alternative ideas.)

    If you honestly believe that teaching is a debt sentence, and by extension believe that you deserve more money just b/c you are a teacher (leaving out any merit decisions), then no, I don't think you should be a teacher. You are not teaching children to be self-sufficient or how to deal with personal responsibility but instead are teaching an entitlement mentality.

    If teachers are so underpaid, they are welcome to go find other jobs. If there is a teacher shortage, the free market will fix it. In the absolute worst case, people would have to teach their own children or pool resources to open a small community school.

    It may come as a shock to you (b/c when all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail), but Western civilization has done quite well, even in its early stages, without a glut of teachers and large school corporations.

    Abraham Lincoln taught himself...well enough to become president. And people can learn just about anything they want on the internet now-a-days. One can even take college classes FOR FREE (but w/o credit).

    And we haven't even really talked about the home-schoolers who as a group do better in life than public school graduates.

    But you are welcome to continue to tell yourself that teachers are an absolute necessity, if it makes you feel better. I know lots of people that refuse to accept reality.

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Tue, Nov 12, 2019, at 9:02 AM
  • *

    C Michael Bond -

    Instead of hitting the "report comment" button as should be done (b/c your comment is out of bounds in terms of the posting rules - which the ephemeral editorial board randomly enforces), I am just gonna let it sit there for everyone to see just how big of a moron you are.

    You may not agree with what I have written. That's fine.

    You may have your own thoughts on the situation. That's fine too.

    I may disagree with those unionist teachers posting on this discussion, but at least they are contributing to the discussion, and I can respect that.

    But instead of actually joining the discussion, you decide to make 5th grade comments.

    That just shows how low class you are. But at least your elementary-minded peers will get a small chuckle. So there is that...

    And FYI - I don't watch Fox News (or any TV news program). I have a brain and can form my own opinion based on factual information input and experience. Maybe one day you will too.

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Tue, Nov 12, 2019, at 9:17 AM
  • *

    LOL - I feel honored that you pay so close attention to what I write.

    Its just too bad that you haven't actually learned anything from it.

    But from your writing style, personal attacks, and elementary mind I can't say that I am too surprised.

    As such, you can't seem to stay on topic...

    Maybe its that public school education by unionist teachers that you are so fond of blindly defending.

    It seems that any amount of money spent on you was a waste.

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Tue, Nov 12, 2019, at 10:44 AM
  • *

    I hope that some of you reading take a deeper understanding of this thread:

    I have stated my opinions and backed them up with facts.

    In return I get misrepresentations of what I have said and personal attacks on me.

    I get bullied to reveal my identity. (Do you really think that I would allow those posting to know who my children are considering what has been said and how these people have behaved?)

    They share their stories, tugging at your emotions.

    But not one of my "detractors" has actually given ANYTHING to suggest that I am wrong in my opinions, based on actual data. (Well, there was the one unsourced "fact" that Indiana is in the bottom 10 of state funding for education. Notice they didn't compare our education success to ANY of those states with higher per pupil spending.)

    They want to tell you how hard they work. Ok, I never argued that you didn't work hard.

    They want to tell you how much they love the children. Ok, never argued that either.

    They want to tell you how rough they have it. (I have only argued that it was your choice of profession.)

    They want to tell you that teachers are necessary and deserve more money - while taking the day of with pay and having our children be educated on computers. (Irony much?)

    And yet YOU (and me) are simply supposed to shut up; say thank you; pay more without question; and do it all b/c THEY know better than you.

    The Teachers Union is NOT an advocate for our children or their education. They are an advocate for the teachers and have their own agenda.

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Tue, Nov 12, 2019, at 12:13 PM
  • Indiana Public Schools receive roughly half of EVERY tax dollar the state of Indiana collects.

    (7 billion) out of the state budget EVERY year.

    Local tax dollars collected and spent on local school funding 75% of property tax bill. EVERY year.

    Not enough money...Huh?

    -- Posted by direstraits on Tue, Nov 12, 2019, at 4:30 PM
  • direstraits,

    Exactly. A previous comment stated that there is a great amount of support for the teachers. That may be so when they conveniently forget to mention that all of their proposals will result in significant increases to your property taxes to accomplish.

    -- Posted by hometownboy on Tue, Nov 12, 2019, at 4:34 PM
  • -- Posted by nkempf on Tue, Nov 12, 2019, at 7:27 PM
Respond to this story

Posting a comment requires free registration: