White, task force release report on campus free expression

Thursday, December 2, 2021
DePauw University President Lori White discusses a report detailing free expression in higher education which was released by the Academic Leaders Task Force on Campus Free Expression Tuesday.
Banner Graphic/BRAND SELVIA

Part of an effort to encourage freedom of expression and diversity, a task force which included DePauw University President Lori White is now calling on college and university campuses to be more open in doing so.

Members of the Academic Leaders Task Force on Campus Free Expression, White and other collegiate leaders released a report Tuesday outlining how such environments could be encouraged and maintained.

The 10-member group was formed through the Bipartisan Policy Center, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank whose mission is merging ideas and leadership from conservative and liberal politics on various issues and to promote cooperation.

It was co-chaired by former Vermont Gov. Jim Douglas and former Washington Gov. Christine Gregoire. For her part, White in effect represented the Midwestern demographic of colleges and universities.

The report provides four recommendations for collegiate presidents, administrators, faculty and campus communities in general to address issues related to free expression.

First, colleges and universities should address a perceived tension that contrasts academic rigor with upholding values or policies of diversity, equity and inclusion in an environment for learning.

Second, campuses should act on initiatives which encourage a diversity of viewpoints which may be shared, and to exposing students to ways in which they can affirm or confront those viewpoints.

Third, campuses should adopt policies which protect controversial expression, in which hasty or otherwise overtly disruptive responses to it would be discouraged.

Finally, campus administration and faculty should encourage academic and civic discourse by helping students develop skills and habits which promote an environment for open inquiry and productive debate.

In a webinar moderated by Johns Hopkins University President Ronald Daniels, White discussed the report’s aim with Douglas and Gregoire, as well as Auburn University’s diversity and inclusion vice president Taffye Clayton, Rhodes College philosophy professor Daniel Cullen and Bridge-USA COO Ross Irwin.

“It was a real gift to be able to engage in dialogue with so many incredible colleagues who represented different perspectives at the university and on the issue of freedom of expression,” White said at first.

Speaking in broad terms, White said the task force wrestled with freedom of expression, as well as diversity, equity and inclusion, as being foundational values. This grounded their deliberations on how they drive interactions on campus.

“I don’t know that everyone thought that was going to be part of our really deep and robust conversation,” White said. “How do we create environments that affirm the right of every member of our community to be, as I always say, their full, authentic selves, and be able to debate and to share and to criticize?”

White contextualized this in still fostering an “affirming community.” This, she said, is where all of its members, especially those who may be historically marginalized, do not feel threatened by anyone who may not agree with, or perhaps dehumanize, how they identify themselves.

Ultimately, White provided, the challenge was articulating in the report how these complex elements of free expression are important in and of themselves, as well as how they are connected.

She outlined that there has been a moving away from intellectual discourse on campuses. However, she noted that the data reinforced for her the role of lived experiences and feelings in terms of people arguing for or against something.

As such, bringing young people who have grown up in homogeneous environments into a collegiate setting — and then automatically expecting them to figure out how to debate difference — hinders students by not giving them a foundation for this discourse.

“I think what’s important is that we need to be able to think about how we introduce these concepts to our students,” she said, “and how we give them the actual tools to engage in the kind of intellectual conversation that we would like to see happen on our college campuses.”

White referenced a recent incident at DePauw in which a professor used the N-word. This was not directed at an individual student, but was articulated in the context of a class discussion. Some students, though, asked White to ban the word on campus.

“There are books that I have read that use that word that I certainly wouldn’t want banned in a classroom,” White said in also applying her response to videos in a classroom or playing rap music. “I also said, however, that the word’s abhorrent; I wouldn’t use it; I wouldn’t encourage others to use it.

“I think that’s an example of ways in which we can convey that there are certain words, phrases, even speakers, that we don’t support, but that we defend the right of the campus to invite the speaker, of the professor to choose particular books and materials, and why all of that is so important.”

White said the report underscores that “this is not easy work.” However, collegiate presidents have to use their “pulpit” and “capital” to model how administrators and campus communities in general respond to tension.

She acknowledged a perspective that the report’s recommendations have to be made to “live,” rather than simply idealized. In the end, it should be about being invited into a space and having a dialogue, and then being able to leave it without feeling personally attacked or ostracized.

“I hope that DePauw can be a role model for that for the community,” White said in comments to the Banner Graphic. “We’re all members of our community, regardless of their background and their political ideology.”

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  • interesting

    -- Posted by beg on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 10:28 AM
  • Depauw ranked dead last in the country in supporting free speech in the FIRE ranking released in September. Its the second year in a row. Perhaps President White should look to her own house, rather than make rules for others.

    -- Posted by Old Soul on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 11:27 AM
  • Old Soul….give her time.

    -- Posted by 3m50 on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 2:36 PM
  • Free expression actually being threatened on college campuses is totally over-hyped by republicans. They're the only reason it's getting all this attention. Hey wingers, If your pov is basically you being a jerk, then it's probably smart that you're afraid to be your "authentic self".

    The problem isn't that students don't want to debate issues like conservatism, liberalism, capitalism, abortion, Isreal-Palestine, and on and on etc...... what they're doing is they're calling out harmful behavior everywhere they see it. What's not being discussed is that this generation it's just how it is now, it's not going to change, so good luck trying. The internet, smartphones, social media, the Me Too movement, Black lives Matter, lgbtq, et al they're not gonna tolerate the jerks and bullies. They're gonna keep calling you out, exposing, cancelling you... and they're fine with you staying cancelled forever unless you show some remorse, and amends are made. It's never going away, people. Have a good day.

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 4:14 PM
  • Hooray for Raker!!!! Thank you!

    -- Posted by GladysK on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 5:19 PM
  • RAKER wrote, "They're gonna keep calling you out, exposing, cancelling you... and they're fine with you staying cancelled forever unless you show some remorse, and amends are made. It's never going away, people. Have a good day."

    Was this rant directed toward someone in particular or just the average PUTNAM COUNTY resident in general?

    RAKER wrote, "The Me Too movement, Black lives Matter, lgbtq, et al they're not gonna tolerate the jerks and bullies."

    Who exactly are the bullies? The media during the riots and protests of the last few summers didn't do very well in portraying at least one of the above named groups as anything but jerks and bullies. Whose fault is that? The media, the rioters, arsonists, bullies and jerks, or the innocents whose lives were affected? Is the FOX network the only guilty party?

    I also think there are enough extremists to go around on both sides.

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 6:32 PM
  • @Prince of Stardust Hills The US has a long history of riots that started because police abusing or killing minorities, you should go read some history. BLM is organized protesting, not rioting. It's ok for someone to appreciate law enforcement while wanting them to be held accountable when they do wrong.

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 7:58 PM
  • *

    Raker, I think you missed the point of the article and what Dr. White was saying.

    The main point of the pow-wow was to discuss the allowance of opinions/thoughts you don't like to be said...regardless of where you fall on the spectrum of any topic.

    And yeah, right now it is the conservative voice that is being shut down across campuses. It's possible that one day it will be someone considered from the left today...b/c the further you move to the left, there is now someone to the right of you.

    Notice that she brought up "the N-word"... in the context of DePauw students trying to get that word banned from campus. Regardless of the context, usage, or anything else. She said that it isn't a nice word and isn't one that she promotes the use of...but its a word that exists and to ban it would be to limit the exchange of ideas.

    (Did she say "N-word" or was the overly sensitive editorial staff at BG at it again... b/c by saying "N-word" instead of the actual word is in contrast to the point she was trying to make.)

    Who gets to define who is a "jerk" or "bully"? You? A committee? Society? (You might want to study up on 1930's Germany before going too far down your declared road.)

    And why should they be cancelled b/c of it? Why not simply let them be and live your life without their influence... it's certainly easy enough to do. I don't care for rap music or hip-hop. But I don't think it should be cancelled. I simply don't listen to it.

    And who's side will you pick between a Muslim and a homosexual? According to many, both are "marginalized"...and yet they are on polar opposites in regards to sexuality. B/c according to your standards it is perfectly acceptable to "cancel" someone just b/c you disagree with their stance. So who should be cancelled?

    Those that know better - and I would like to think that Dr. White is one of them - would say that while it is acceptable for a Muslim to live according to their faith in regards to their views of homosexuality and that they should be able to express those views (minus actual harm); the homosexual should be able to express their own POV, whether for homosexuality or even just against the Muslim POV, without fear of retribution or violence.

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 8:13 PM
  • Yeah, Raker. Thanks for the advice. I'll just go read "SOME" history.

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 8:33 PM
  • @Dreadpirateroberts No I fully understand the discussion, if you do some research you'll find that this "free speech on campus" debate is being almost exclusively pushed by republicans who are upset about their speakers being shunned (because of their offensive statements, not their politics). And that republican students feel apprehensive, I guess?

    About the n-word example, I think the student has a valid point. Even if the professor was discussing or reading the word out loud, it's extremely offensive to many black people because it has always been used as a vile insult to dehumamize them, and they no doubt have been called that in their life. So when you have an intelligent person who is not black say the word so casually, as though they don't take seriously the hate that has been directed at them with that word, like they are completely ignorant to how white people still use that word today to express hate. And then the excuse is, " but rappers say it, you call each other that word"... . as though they're incapable of understanding why, but we know that's just an act, c'mon now it's 2021 and you teach college.

    How to know to when someone is being a jerk or bully? How about universally accepted virtues, morals, and ethics?

    Your hypothetical about the muslim and gay person doesn't consider the alternative that they could each just live their lives and not go Westboro chuch fanatical about it, unless you know an actual example that muslims and gays are fighting on college campuses.

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 9:02 PM
  • @Prince of Stardust Hills For crying out loud just google "history of riots in the U.S."

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 9:04 PM
  • RAKER wrote, "BLM is organized protesting, not rioting."

    RAKER, your suggestion brought me to IRISH draft riots in the CIVIL WAR. Didn't help me at all. So I GOGGLED BLM and RIOTS, and the first example I found was exactly the opposite of what you wrote.

    I am confused. Riots, fires, bloodshed? Seems very dangerous.

    https://nypost.com/2021/11/11/blm-leader-hawk-newsome-threatens-riots-after-sit-...

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 9:24 PM
  • @Prince of Stardust Hills Ok I took a minute to look at your link to that disgusting excuse of a newspaper called the New York Post, and it took me 3 minutes of looking online and at the official Black Lives Matter website to learn that the supposed BLM co-founder they are quoting named Hawk Newsome, is actually not affiliated with them and is someone who co-opted the name Black Lives Matter and has no affiliation with the actual organization, they in fact disavow him and are upset how his crazy talk is reflecting negatively on them.The only news outlets talking about him are conservative. They know all this, but won't say it because they know it makes BLM look bad. The New York Post won't tell you that because lying is what they do. Do you also get news from the National Enquirer? Might as well. Here's a link about some other riots

    https://www.history.com/tag/riots

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 9:58 PM
  • RAKER wrote, "They're gonna keep calling you out, exposing, cancelling you... and they're fine with you staying cancelled forever unless you show some remorse, and amends are made. It's never going away, people. Have a good day."

    Was this rant directed toward someone in particular or just the average PUTNAM COUNTY resident in general?

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 10:25 PM
  • @Prince of Stardust Hills It was directed towards the jerks that I mentioned, I think it's pretty clear.

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 11:03 PM
  • @GladysK Thank you

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 11:07 PM
  • Wow. Just wow! Expected but still, just wow

    -- Posted by beg on Thu, Dec 2, 2021, at 11:11 PM
  • *

    On this rare occasion I agree with Beg. It was expected. As soon as I read the article I knew the right wing snowflakes would be triggered. And they did not disappoint at all!

    Free Speech / Free Expression has just become code word for the Right Wing / Q crowd to demand that all left / liberal views cease, and that we need to listen / accept their racist, bigoted views.

    -- Posted by RSOTS on Fri, Dec 3, 2021, at 8:37 AM
  • alternate worlds out there

    -- Posted by beg on Fri, Dec 3, 2021, at 9:17 AM
  • A hearty endorsement from RSOTS is living proof that my life as an elderly yet contented overweight BANNER GRAPHIC troll has been and will always be worthwhile, whether it be for causes on the left or the right or for leading STARDUST HILL's drive to free Britany Spears, which if I remember correctly, RSOTS, ever so like-minded, eagerly endorsed.

    I'm on my way to MacDonald's.

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Fri, Dec 3, 2021, at 9:27 AM
  • *

    Beg - There's just one world out there and we all live in it. You just have to open your eyes and see it. Take off the blinders.

    -- Posted by RSOTS on Fri, Dec 3, 2021, at 10:13 AM
  • @Raker there are two sides being jerks lately, and anyone who only sees one side’s faults is biased and ignoring the blatant truth. Stop pushing your agenda. You’re part of the problem.

    -- Posted by techphcy on Sat, Dec 4, 2021, at 5:50 PM
  • @Techphcy Your vague comment is just you blowing smoke because you're mad, I get it. I get mad too! And I get that your a republican, but reality just ain't on your side. That's why Trump got booted after four years and Biden won.....but Clinton had eight years, so did Obama? Bush jr only had eight because votes for Gore were thrown out in Florida, and then 9/11. If you need proof how bad republicans are at running the country, there you go. But I'm off topic, I digress. For some reason Trump popped in my head. Both sides........no no no smh

    -- Posted by Raker on Sat, Dec 4, 2021, at 8:08 PM
  • Biased perspectives blind us from truth and legit solutions. There are many reasons we are so divided but this is one of them

    -- Posted by beg on Sat, Dec 4, 2021, at 11:55 PM
  • *

    Very true Beg. It's just sad that you are among one of the most biased posters on here but somehow don't see it. But I hold out hope.....

    -- Posted by RSOTS on Sun, Dec 5, 2021, at 12:03 AM
  • *

    Showing up in FIRE rankings is like getting on Joe McCarthy's list of names. The "Foundation for Individual Rights in Education" is not an organization dedicated to equity in education, in any way, shape or form.

    -- Posted by Bunny1E on Sun, Dec 5, 2021, at 10:10 AM
  • Lol. Literally

    -- Posted by beg on Sun, Dec 5, 2021, at 11:42 PM
  • There's a number of contributors to the BANNER comment section who possess a superior "air" and seem to take a certain pleasure in vitriolic writing, name calling, blanket condemnations, and expressing an open dislike and perhaps even hatred for republicans and conservatives who believe in the old adage that "less is more".

    I find their viewpoints entertaining, even if not always well-thought-out, and hope they always feel welcome to express their opinions in the BANNER.

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Mon, Dec 6, 2021, at 9:50 AM
  • *

    Raker - I find it funny that you feel the need to protect a black woman from a word that she doesn't want protected from... isn't that a bit racist? And sexist?

    And since you didn't like my theoretical homosexual/muslim conundrum, let's try this one: JK Rowling

    Ms Rowling has been cancelled even though she is a huge supporter of all things alphabet...well, except for the ones that are anti-science and anti-woman. And that is what got her cancelled. B/c like too many libertarians, leftists can never be pure enough. (Hmmm... seems we have heard that before throughout human history.)

    Despite what you have been told, totalitarianism isn't a right-wing extremism. It is a left-wing extremism. Statism is your lot. The further you go right on the political spectrum the closer you get to anarchy (absence of government). And we (conservatives...classical liberals) aren't looking for purity b/c we understand the foibles of human nature. We are happy to compromise and exchange ideas. (The nature of governments and man is a topic for another time perhaps.)

    And just for fun, lets look at another one... BillyBob down the road doesn't like black people. He doesn't hurt them, but he just doesn't want anything to do with them for his own reasons and isn't bothered to tell people those reasons. You think BillyBob is racist and want to cancel him b/c BillyBob doesn't conform to YOUR line of thought.

    Now, what about Freedom, Georgia? Is that racist? Or the "buy black" movement? BLM-types pushing for "separate but equal" a la mid-nineteenth century segregation so odiously imposed by some whites? These are real examples (but certainly not an exhaustive list) of black ethnocentrism. Shouldn't this ethnocentrism be just as vigorously attacked as BillyBob's ethnocentrism?

    Or do you buy into the illogical notion that blacks cannot be racist?...which, by definition, is a racist statement.

    The way I see it, you and your fellow travelers don't really seem to care about blacks except to use them as a weapon against those from whom you wish to extract power or demand fealty. The soft bigotry of low expectations...the idea that "you ain't black if [x]"... the un-blacking (or Uncle Tom-ing) of those blacks that think differently than you...and it goes on and on.

    You shout the word "racist" like a Salem girl screaming "witch" or a zealous inquisitor pointing out the "heretic"... b/c you don't care what ideas the other person has (regardless of whether you agree or disagree), you just want them destroyed.

    You don't want there to be any exchange of ideas. I don't know that you could even engage in an exchange of ideas. I have yet to see anything resembling reasoned thought or a willingness to even listen to opposing viewpoints from you and several others on here.

    You prefer power and control instead of freedom. Your fear (for that is the root of your power lust) won't allow for freedom...for anyone.

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Mon, Dec 6, 2021, at 9:10 PM
  • @dreadpiratesroberts See, this is why I don't even bother arguing with you most of the time, it's pointless and we'll just go on forever. I wish we could have a more playful debate. But I just don't like some of the racist comments you've made. Yes, Billy Bob is a racist, and people have a right to call him a racist and dislike him, just the same as he dislikes black people.

    And about JK Rowling, who basically said that trans men are basically just gay men playing dress-up, here's what Harry Potter (Daniel Radcliffe) had to say in response... "Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional health care associations who have far more expertise on this subject matter than either Jo or I. According to The Trevor Project, 78% of transgender and nonbinary youth reported being the subject of discrimination due to their gender identity. It’s clear that we need to do more to support transgender and nonbinary people, not invalidate their identities, and not cause further harm." Hermoine (Emma Watson) said "Trans people are who they say they are and deserve to live their lives without being constantly questioned or told they aren’t who they say they are. I want my trans followers to know that I and so many other people around the world see you, respect you, and love you for who you are."

    -- Posted by Raker on Tue, Dec 7, 2021, at 8:19 AM
  • I meant trans women when I wrote trans men, my mistake

    -- Posted by Raker on Tue, Dec 7, 2021, at 8:42 AM
  • *

    LOL - But I don't care if you call BillyBob a racist...and BillyBob probably doesn't care if you call him a racist. You can call him a three-toed sloth... it doesn't make him one.

    And why does he deserve to be cancelled just b/c his opinion differs from yours? He isn't trying to cancel you... he just goes on about his business, likely ignoring you.

    As for your lame argument against JK Rowling...seriously? That is the best you could come up with? Counter opinion.

    Once again, you fail to answer the question of WHY should these people be cancelled?

    Want another example? David Duke, Joe Biden, and Louis Farakhan. All have said vile racist things. David Duke is persona non grata. Joe Biden is shrugged off as "crazy Uncle Joe". And Louis Farakhan is just not mentioned as though if you don't say his name, he isn't real.

    Please provide logical, thoughtful, reasoned out responses.

    Simply calling people names and offering lame opinions as some sort of counter is not arguing or debate.

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Tue, Dec 7, 2021, at 6:58 PM
  • DPR wrote-LOL - "But I don't care if you call BillyBob a racist...and BillyBob probably doesn't care if you call him a racist. You can call him a three-toed sloth... it doesn't make him one."

    No doubt the best BANNER comment of the year!

    One of the best discussions I've read in the BANNER. One wonders what goes on in the mind of someone so preoccupied with their sexuality and that of others, besides ranting, blanket condemnation, hate, and name calling. Get a life.

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Tue, Dec 7, 2021, at 7:10 PM
  • *

    DPR - while much of your comments actually have decent logic to them you're a tad confusing on Billy Bob. You literally stated he doesn't like "Black People" and then in your follow up comment you alluded to the fact that just because you call him something doesn't mean he is. Well I'm pretty sure Billy Bob is a racist.

    Now I can also assume that Billy Bob is a Trumper, Q Follower, Anti-Masker, Anti-Vaxxer and lives south of SR 42 but those would just be assumptions....

    -- Posted by RSOTS on Tue, Dec 7, 2021, at 9:27 PM
  • South of 42! I'm laughing RSOTS! Thanks! Go ahead, make fun of CLOVERDALE. Actually, just a bit north of 42.

    For far too long, you folks up north have made fun of CLOVERDALE, but that's going to change someday, hopefully soon, and when that happens, CLOVERDALE will be known as more than the "GATEWAY to CUNOT" or the back door to the lake.

    Whatever the case, as I've said before, CLOVERDALE remains the home of Indiana's biggest horse barn, and it's the only place in the entire state where 231 crosses Interstate 70.

    So there!

    In addition, Cloverdale still has the best MacDonald's.

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Tue, Dec 7, 2021, at 9:45 PM
  • @dreadpiratesroberts I'm not surprised anymore at your desperate-for-a-reaction comments. It's seriously exhausting having to fact check every wild claim you make knowing that it's almost certainly a half truth or plain lie, and then being proven right. However, I'll admit I do enjoy it a little.

    Biden never said anything racist, period. But you think Billy Bob not liking a whole race of people(the textbook definition of racism) isn't racist because why exactly?

    And I don't have time in the day to write you an essay about why JK Rowling's stance is seen as helping add fuel to the hate movement, that's why I showed you quotes from the stars of her movies that basically sums it up. You keep wanting to argue when everything you post is a lie or an insult. That's a non-starter for me. And sorry, but half of what you're writing sounds like paranoid babbling.

    -- Posted by Raker on Tue, Dec 7, 2021, at 10:06 PM
  • *

    RSOTS - How about I clarify with the idea (thought) that someone can be generally opposed to something without being antagonistic towards that thing. You can not like something while simultaneously not hate it.

    I don't like asparagus. I avoid asparagus. I don't go to grocery stores destroying their asparagus or say that asparagus is of the devil and should not be allowed to exist. I don't even care if other people love asparagus... its just not for me. It's taste doesn't appeal to me and it makes ones urine smell b/c of the sulfur.

    As for BillyBob's proclivities...you are welcome to make whatever assumptions you like. Just keep in mind that you just may be painting him with the same brush that you want to condemn him for using.

    (And for the record, if he existed he would never live in Cloverdale...but he would probably have family in Quincy. LOL)

    Raker - Using your standard for a "racist":

    Biden said that Latinos in America resist vaccinations because “they’re worried that they’ll be vaccinated and deported.” Considering there are a large number of Latino people who legally live in the US... that sounds a little racist. (Insinuating that all/most Latino's are here illegally.)

    In 2007, Biden referred to Barack Obama as “the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean.”... that sounds a little racist. (Or maybe he just doesn't get out much or pay much attention...after all, Dr. Rice was a high level member of GW Bush's staff and she was pretty articulate (well spoken), very bright (PhD), and I don't think she ever looked disheveled.)

    Several times Biden has said that if a black person does not act in a certain way, they aren't black... that sounds a little racist. (Insinuating that blacks are incapable of forming their own opinions and determining their own course of action as individuals.)

    As for JK Rowling - again, offering someone else's opinion is not a reasoned argument. You should go read what she said - and WHY - and then give a reasoned argument to refute that instead of simply saying Harry Potter & Hermione Granger disagree. And why are you throwing shade, calling her a hater? She didn't say she hated anyone...she said they (men who pretend to be women) are harming women. Just b/c you disagree doesnt make it hate.

    Now I will give you yet another opportunity to actually refute/counter what I have posited with actual thoughts and reason instead of drivel.

    Oh, and your fear is showing. Everyone sees it.

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Wed, Dec 8, 2021, at 12:02 AM
  • @dreadpiratesroberts Your example of Billy Bob is absurd. Nobody's talking about the hateful narrow-minded hillbilly living in the woods or cornfields who is racist but never is rude or hateful to minorities or foreigners. Does this person exist? Yes, but give it time. It's just one bad day or bad moment from happening.

    And of course you of all people would equate asparagus with hundreds of millions of human lives.

    As far as Biden's comments, it comes down to intent. Were his words meant in the way that his opponents want them to appear? Undocumented immigrants, in fact, probably are afraid to go to a building where they might get arrested and deported just to get the covid shot. It's ridiculous that you think that's racist I mean c'mon. Biden's bad choice of words doesn't make him racist. I'm really not trying to make excuses for Biden, but compared to Trump, who has been accused of not allowing black residents in is apartments and using the n-word, and other things about women, to put it mildly...

    And I don't know how many more times you want me to say it in a different way, about JK Rowling and her crazy fear that men are dressing as women just so they can use the women's restroom and attack her or spy on her? How often is that happening? Pretty sure the answer is never.

    Obviously, you arguing for people's right to hate and be angry at other human beings simply for being themselves is a passion for you. A disgusting point of view that that has many laws making it illegal for people to act on those feelings.

    -- Posted by Raker on Wed, Dec 8, 2021, at 8:47 AM
  • RAKER wrote, "Nobody's talking about the hateful narrow-minded hillbilly living in the woods or cornfields who is RACIST but never is rude or hateful to minorities or foreigners."

    Well, let's talk about Billy Bob. Billy Bob and his family left "Little Dixie", an actual place, and headed north to escape slavery, not as a slave or slave holder but because the practice was an aberration and disgusting to both him and his GOD. Their trials and tribulation and disgust for slavery are described in a book written in 1856. When the Civil War started, both father and son, driven by their long-lasting hatred for slavery, enlisted immediately and were involved in the war's first battles in southern Missouri.

    The son was killed and was the first person buried in the small cemetery near the rural school I attended in a Union state, completely forgotten by everyone except his family, which includes me. But he wasn't the only NARROW-MINDED HILLBILLY LIVING IN THE WOODS OR CORNFIELDS WHO IS RACIST in my family to make the sacrifice for a race or man he never knew, understood, or probably personally disliked.

    Mister RAKER, calling such a man a RACIST while ranting and worrying about your preoccupation with your sexuality and that of everyone else says a lot about you as a human being, and none of it is good.

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Wed, Dec 8, 2021, at 9:43 AM
  • @Prince of Stardust Hills Wait, so you're telling me that your ancestors moved from their home in Georgia to the North because they hated slavery, joined the army to fight the South, were killed, and the whole time they were racists???? I call BS on your whole story. I'm glad you don't like me.Stay mad.

    -- Posted by Raker on Wed, Dec 8, 2021, at 12:38 PM
  • RAKER wrote, "Nobody's talking about the hateful narrow-minded hillbilly living in the woods or cornfields who is RACIST but never is rude or hateful to minorities or foreigners."

    RAKER, did you write that?

    Did you call such folks RACISTS?

    Georgia? Who said anything about Georgia? Little Dixie is nowhere near Georgia.

    Army? No one said anything about joining any army nor fighting the South. Missouri for those historically challenged was part of the North. Surprised?

    In addition, enlistments, at least during the early part of the CIVIL WAR involved limited enlistments and local militias.

    And while you are pondering your lack of comprehension and of history, look in the mirror.

    And am I mad at you? Not hardly. At my age, I've seen a great deal, and in my eyes, you hardly rate.

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Wed, Dec 8, 2021, at 5:13 PM
  • @Prince of Stardust Hills Yes that's what I said, if you don't like black people your a racist. PERIOD THE END. You just wrote that your family hated slavery, moved north and enlisted to fight in the war. Now your gonna say they fought for the south? That I was wrong for saying army? Because I said Georgia, not Missouri? You're such a lying goober, get outta here with that junk. Get your pretend story straight.

    -- Posted by Raker on Wed, Dec 8, 2021, at 6:47 PM
  • *

    Raker - sigh.

    Saying "I'm really not trying to make excuses for Biden, but..." is you making excuses for Biden.

    Regardless, lets try to re-focus on the original point: why do you believe it is okay for people you disagree with to be "cancelled"?

    I can't help but wonder if some part of it isn't a self-hate thing.

    After all, you seem like someone who is very passionate about upsetting the apple cart of the old establishment...let's say the values & norms of 1950's America....or even the values and norms of 1776 America...or maybe just the values and norms of Christian America.

    I am going to guess that you have a serious problem with the idea of using shame and social pressures to shape society into any of these molds mentioned above by their proponents.

    Yet, by your own admission you have no problem using "universally accepted virtues, morals, and ethics" of your own choosing to use as a weapon to shape society.

    Cancel culture is nothing more than a fancy term for using shame/social pressuring to mold society as YOU see fit.

    The tactics are the same. It's only who is deciding what that is different.

    And so that we are clear, "Universally accepted" is NOT, in fact, universal acceptance unless it is universal within a specific group such as an organization or other like-minded group...which of course is the crux of the matter. Differing opinions, according to you, must be eliminated so that there is "universal acceptance". Deviation is not tolerated. Which is an odd stance from someone who seems to pride themselves on their supposed open-mindedness.

    We see it in your posts...anger, name-calling, hatred. And yet you try to project these things onto those who simply disagree with you.

    No one says "I hate Raker". No one says "Raker's sexuality bothers me". (I don't think anyone really cares.)

    Yet you continue to personally attack those who simply dare to question your thought process.

    Is it b/c you know, way down deep in your heart, that you really have no defense for your own deception? You have been lying to yourself, hating yourself, projecting that hate onto others b/c the thought of self-reflection is too much to bear?

    So again I ask - why do you, Raker, believe that it is okay to do to others what you do not wish done to you?

    -- Posted by dreadpirateroberts on Wed, Dec 8, 2021, at 10:12 PM
  • @dreadpiratesroberts Conservatives only have a problem with cancel culture and name calling when it's the bully that's getting bullied.

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 9, 2021, at 7:51 AM
  • dreadpirateroberts, don't waste your time. Raker can't make a contribution. He can't explain his position or relate to yours. In addition, there's far too much name-calling, bullying, and labeling associated with his comments.

    DPR-Allow me to quote you. "No one says "I hate Raker". No one says "Raker's sexuality bothers me". (I don't think anyone really cares.)

    Yet you continue to personally attack those who simply dare to question your thought process.

    Is it b/c you know, way down deep in your heart, that you really have no defense for your own deception? You have been lying to yourself, hating yourself, projecting that hate onto others b/c the thought of self-reflection is too much to bear?

    So again I ask - why do you, Raker, believe that it is okay to do to others what you do not wish done to you?"

    Again, well said. By the way, I have a fourth-grade geography book Raker is welcome to have.

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Thu, Dec 9, 2021, at 8:41 AM
  • @Prince of Stardust Hills I think I did just explain my position, it's not my problem you're incapable of understanding. And you didn't say which state Dixie was in, so I said Georgia, the only place I know of with a city named Dixie. But of course, in typical meathead bully style, you want to keep bringing that up like it means something. Even if I did make some mistake, it's inconsequential to my point. And it's probably because I'm at work trying to leave a quick comment when I have an idle moment, and I'm multitasking and distracted. I'm not sitting on my couch picking my ears and trying to do a Wilford Brimley impersonation.

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 9, 2021, at 10:14 AM
  • Diabeetus

    -- Posted by BJCP96 on Thu, Dec 9, 2021, at 11:33 AM
  • RAKER, thanks for responding to my comments. I've certainly enjoyed yours. It's a blast meeting new people with different ideas and viewpoints, no matter how difficult to understand. And the name calling and trashing is okay, too. Sometimes, it's just part of the fun.

    And several times you have made me laugh. Much appreciated.

    If it matters, "LITTLE DIXIE" was a Confederate/deep SOUTH holdout in northern Missouri. Kind of famous for several reasons if you study slavery/Civil War history, which is something of a passion.

    Again, enjoyed the interaction.

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Thu, Dec 9, 2021, at 12:31 PM
  • "We'll never be sick, we won't get any older and we won't ever die." -W.B.

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 9, 2021, at 1:31 PM
  • “People don't start playing ball at your age, they retire!” - W.B.

    -- Posted by BJCP96 on Thu, Dec 9, 2021, at 1:47 PM
  • Sponsored by Liberty Medical

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 9, 2021, at 2:33 PM
  • HAHAHAHA! Loved it!

    -- Posted by Prince of Stardust Hills on Thu, Dec 9, 2021, at 2:41 PM
  • OK relax, gramps

    -- Posted by Raker on Thu, Dec 9, 2021, at 3:29 PM
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